New Grind, Just like the Old Grind: Quest Heavy Advancement (Page 5 of 5)

Article by Michael Hartman (10,439 pts ) , published May 28, 2009

This Is No Longer a Game, This is a Job... a To-Do List

Article ImageBuilding off that WoW Add-On I mentioned in the previous section, what has happened in quest heavy MMOs is they are less about having fun and more about following a to-do list. You run around to the NPCs with yellow exclamation points, get your list of tasks, follow them in an efficient manner (with add-ons to actually calculate the most efficient path for you), then run around to NPCs with yellow question marks so you can turn them in.

The joy and wonder of playing a game in a rich, virtual world has gone by the way side. Instead, you are a low level bureaucrat filling out order requests and filing them at the appropriate NPC overseer.

When WoW implemented daily quests, I realized the industry was really going in the wrong direction. Daily quests are hardly different than a list of chores for some kids living on a farm. You login, you load up on your "dailies", and you grind them out for money and reputation. People do these exact same quests hundreds of days in a row. To make things worse, the culture of the game has devolved such that people averse to grinding out their dailies are called lazy. This is a game we are talking about, and people who are not interested in mindless, uninteresting, repetitive daily chores are chastised for their lack of work ethic. Sounds like a workaday, time punching job to me.

So What to Do About Quests Then?

Article Image

Quests are not a flawed concept. They can be an extremely interesting, fun, and engaging way for designers to tell stories and connect players with the game world. They can be used to create relationships between players and NPCs that actually seem meaningful. They can create the illusion of personality in major game NPCs. There is a lot of potential.

But when quests are overdone, or when quests are used as the main form of advancement, the system breaks down. All the flaws listed throughout this post become exposed. Eventually, players suffer the same frustration and tedium they complained about in pure grind games.

It is important to make players feel like their actions are meaningful in a game context. That is what tends to make such actions interesting on their own, rather than interesting only because of the loot or xp they give. If people care about what their character is doing, they will enjoy it regardless of the reward. This goal has to be approached from multiple directions. There is no single, absolute way to make content engaging. Quests are one way, but only when used in moderation.

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Comments

Oct 31, 2009 11:26 AM
kim schmidt
so true
i really feel you on this michael, i started my mmo carrer in daoc/EQ1,

one thing in daoc i didnt complete 1 quest on my first 50, and it is probably the most enjoyfull and funniest char i have leveled up.

i remember making my keen nightshade i think i started in magmell, and there was absolutely no in game dirrection what so ever not even a map.

and that is one thing that encourages players to explore theres not a giant map/gps/tourist guide showing where the places are, but it was that sense of "a new world to explore with friends"

i saw people fighting some beettles near the beach and i walked up to them, they instantly /hailed me and buffed me and asked if i wanted to join, wow was that awesome :D, and whe just killed beettles, but in daoc getting to know people was enjoyable aswell, there was nothing of that "do you have that Q etc" whe just grouped up killed/trained enjoyed our selves

and i have been looking for that feeling ever since

ps: sorry if my english is a bit broken, and a great writing

Aug 8, 2009 12:15 PM
Thomas Arp
Games that got it Right?
Anyone have examples of games that got the balance right?
I've played Wow until the questgrind made the game uninteresting (and yes, that happens a LONG time before the level cap).
I've played games like Guild Wars, which basically had "PUG" hubs between zones, allowing players on the same quests to team up, in an effort to avoid the problem of not having people on the same quest steps around. They also had the problem of advancement differential between players, forcing replaying of content.
I've played (granted, non-MMORPG) Fallout 3 which encourages exploration by using quests, but allows for free exploration to the entire world, regardless of quests and level (You'll just need to be a lot more careful in areas you're too low to handle). Generally, questing isn't needed to play the game at all, though it can provided an XP boost..

I think the Fallout 3 model is the most interesting an viable solution.

Anyone else have something to contribute on this subject?
Jul 19, 2009 3:21 AM
RE: ThatGurl
ThatGurl, thanks for the comment.

I wish I could disagree with what you've written, but you are pretty close to the mark. This is one of the inherent flaws in the subscription model in my opinion. When your business model is based on keeping people playing for as long as possible, it is very tempting to implement these grinds.

A better focus would be to make sure people are having fun when they are playing, and give them things to spend money on WHEN THEY ARE PLAYING that add even more fun.

But that is fodder for another article entirely. :)
Jul 18, 2009 10:37 PM
ThatGurl
You'd never get away with convincing people...
You'd never get away with convincing people that play games based entirely around questing as the dominant source of advancement that the copious amounts of repetitive quests that there's something wrong. Hell if you posted a link to this article in a game like OGP's LaTale you'd get flamed out the ass...yeah..that game is nothing but quest grind instead of mob grind. And truthfully after slaying 40 white beetle G and 40 shaggy in the snowfields, it is far from overjoying to have the NPC tell me I can do it again. (it is able to be done THREE times.)

Christ almighty I don't think there will ever be a MMORPG that isn't grind because hosts like OGP and heck, even Squaresoft's FF11 wouldn't last if there was less or no grind. It's all an arguement of "If they level too fast they won't need to buy from us". Money, money, money.

There's always money in grind, for F2P games especially. "We can release EXP boosters and these poor suckers will buy it because they're under the impression that this game is FUN when they repeat the same quests multiple times!"

Try and point it out and you get flamed to hell and back for it. Everything from "you're a carebear" to "noob" or "don't like it? leave" will be thrown at you. It's funny how people will defend this when they cannot legitimately justify why it is REQUIRED that you grind out thousands upon thousands of EXP just for a single level and you need to repeat the same mindless tasks.

They cannot justify it so they prefer to simply label you as lazy. Let's face it, these bastardized "MMORPG" games have been grind ever since the advent making money off people's suffering was thought of. People are so desensitized that they have no idea and actually picture the idea of a grind free mmrpg or a low grind. "What fun is there if you max out in a week? You'll have nothing to do". Yes, that is true, but what fun is it when it takes days to level when you're repeating the same stupid stuff?
Jul 11, 2009 1:56 AM
Thanks for the feedback.
I'd love to hear from more people on this issue. This is an issue I feel passionately about, as I have been making games professionally for 13 years. I hate seeing something as cool as "questing" get turned into nothing more serious feeling than picking up trash in your front yard.

If you liked this article, you might want to also check out my blog:

http://www.muckbeast.com

or follow me on twitter:

http://twitter.com/muckbeast

Thanks again for reading!
Jun 18, 2009 3:51 AM
AskTheCoders
Interesting
This is an interesting take on questing and I agree for the most part. It is easy for an interesting dynamic quest system to become just another grind or else lose the part where it becomes interesting.
Jun 9, 2009 12:22 AM
Rob
So true
I totally agree with you. My first MMO was Everquest. It was a social game and it was so much fun. I hate being led along in these new MMO's. Your movements feel so scripted.
Jun 8, 2009 3:06 PM
Khaba
Solutions to perennial MMO problems
I've never played an MMO for 2 reasons. 1) not enough free time and 2) aversion to 'grinding'.

However, the theory of an MMO was always immensely appealing to me (especially the economics - it seems that an MMO would be a good place to test economic theories).

I'm surprised that better solutions to the grinding problem haven't emerged given the amount of focus the industry (and fans) now have on the genre. I have a simple proposal, which shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

Let PCs be quest givers.

PCs could get some XP for giving a quest to another PC (and more when they complete it). The upfront XP would have to be minimal to avoid quid pro quo quest giving/taking with no intention of completing them. But I'm sure all the details like that could be worked out. A Quest-Giver rating system could be used to identify the best quest givers. Basically, use the Web 2.0 model and let the users generate the content.
 
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