New Grind, Just like the Old Grind: Quest Heavy Advancement

Written by: Michael Hartman • Edited by: Michele McDonough
Updated Aug 18, 2011 • Related Guides: Daily Quests | XP | World Of Warcraft

When it first appeared, quest heavy advancement was hailed as a relief from the "mob grind" prevalent in DIKU style MMORPGs. But different does not always mean better. The quest grind has turned out to be little different than a mob grind, and in some ways it is worse. And oh my, the walking...

Bashing Quests? How Dare You! We Love the Quest Grind

A lot of MMO gamers are probably reading this and are already reaching for the pitchforks and torches. I implore you to read the entire article and look at the subject from a new perspective. This article was inspired by a post on my blog, Muckbeast. Reader response was so overwhelming, I knew the subject deserved a more detailed examination.

Questing was praised as the solution to the tedium of mob grinding. World of Warcraft, of course, is at the forefront of this movement. Every zone or town has one or more "hubs" with merchants and quest givers. The quests then cause you to move about the zone doing this or that task, killing X of Y mob, gathering A of B items, and the like. The idea was to give players a story and a reason behind all of their actions, rather than just running from place to place killing every mobbie they saw. In some ways this system has been a success, but in many others it has been an abject failure.

Questing and Quest Grinding vs Mob Grinding? Which method is a faster way to level?

This question summarizes what quest heavy advancement has become. While researching for this article, something very similar to that phrase was the most ideal search phrase. Sad, isn't it? The point of quest based advancement was supposed to be a focus on story and a movement of the player away from single minded focus on reaching the level cap. So much for that idea.

Where Did Quest Heavy Advancement Go Right? Quest Grinds That Are Ok.

Sorry to give away the ending, but this part of the article is far shorter than the parts that talk about where quest heavy gaming went wrong.

Many quests in games like WoW are actually very good. They have interesting story lines. They have characters you care about. You can find yourself moving forward to advance the story or to help out an NPC you feel an affinity towards. Those are all good things.

WoW-style quest design keeps players moving from zone to zone and avoids the "where do I go next?" problem. As you finish all the quests in a hub, the quest givers start asking you to visit NPCs in the next zone over. This pushes you along at approximately the right level to move along. This is a helpful and effective way to keep players progressing through a world's content.

Finally, quest heavy advancement does effectively create the illusion that you are not simply grinding mobs - for a time, at least. Eventually, it becomes obvious you are still grinding, you just do a lot of running back and forth after every 10 to 20 mobs you kill. Oh wait, this is supposed to be the good stuff.

Where Did Quest Heavy Advancement Go Wrong?

The short answer is: in more ways than I can cover in a single section or even a single article. But I am sure going to try! WoW is a common example, but the same problems crop up in other similar MMOs: Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, and others that follow the same quest obsession.

I am going to start right off with the main reason quest heavy MMOs go wrong. Quest heavy advancement is actually a disincentive to grouping. Forced grouping is bad, but anti-grouping is even worse. If people would LIKE to group with people, but the game discourages it, that is an absolutely terrible condition. To whatever degree questing pretties up the grinding process to make it seem less tedium, passing the time chatting with actual people is a million times better.

How does quest heavy advancement discourage grouping? Because it is virtually impossible for people to stay synced up as far as quest progress. When I play MMOs with my wife, it is hard enough for us to keep two characters in sync. Imagine friends who don't live together. Imagine more than 2 people? Unless you all agree to never play certain characters except when everyone is together, you can't stay on track. This means some people always have to be caught up, others are way ahead, and there are always people redoing content and feeling like they are wasting time.

It is even worse for pick up groups, because the odds of being on the same step for more than 1 or 2 quests in a row are extremely slim. So if you happen to find someone who needs to do the same objective, you usually group up, beat that one quest, and then part ways. That usually follows from a brief discussion like this:

Player 1: Have you done Find the 12 Foozles yet?

Player 2: Yeah, already did that. Have you done Rescue Princess Esmerelda?

Player 1: I'm on step 8 of that.

Player 2: Oh, I'm only on step 2. Want to help me catch up?

Player 1: (unless he is extremely charitable) Well.... (uncomfortable), I really need to finish <something for some reason or other>.

Player 2: Ok. Take care then. Thanks for the group.

Player 1: See ya!

(Keep reading... there is much more!)

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Tesh Sep 7, 2010 7:33 PM

One more problem with current quests

I'm always annoyed by the questgivers that send me back to the place I just was, to kill stuff I just killed while I was going about doing something else. Surely if the quest is to clear out the bad guys, my efforts at doing just that don't need to be repeated, but this time with a list in hand?

Also, on grouping, Brian "Psychochild" Green has a great article up on the subject:

http://psychochild.org/?p=745

You know me, I detest forced grouping, but I heartily agree that grouping shouldn't be punished or difficult.

Morgan Mar 22, 2010 1:01 PM

The Grind

Read the article with some interest, but cant say I ultimatly agree with it.

What we have to remember about your primary example WoW is, regardless of what we ultimatly think from either a player or developer standpoint... 'they got it right', hence why they have destroyed the market and will have a player base in the millions for a long long time.

They dont eliminate the grind, they give it micro endpoints, we kill our twenty mobs.. turn in the quest and get a little pat on the back. Yes they give us dailies.. but they give us LOTS of them to choose from.. of all different kinds. Sure some players get stuck doing the same ones, but not all.

I understand the comments about 'staged quests' and cant disagree with their potential to stop / disrupt grouping, but in WoW you still have the option of going out an just wiping out creatures non-stop if that is your poison. A MMO these days has to make a decision whether to 'limit' its player base with an all or nothing approach, or do we tempt people away with the familiar.

Let me put it from a salesperson approach.. stood in front of a group of prospective players.. which of the two appeals more. The question has been asked 'I have a fighter, how do I level him"

1. "A combat character can gain xp for level advancement by killing of the monsters"

2. "A combat character can gain xp for level advancement by killing of the monsters, however has the option of visiting various trainers throughout the land who will give them daily quests such as endurance runs (point a to be to c, gathering a little token to turn in, also leads to familiarity with local geography), hunting quests (your typical kill x of this), gathering of medicinal herbs to aid recovery.. all of which contribute to your level advancement... though ultimatly, the timescales are pretty similar."

The daily quest / repeatable quest / one off quest has its place in level advancement as it lends variety, and variety = happy, longterm players

Michael Hartman Mar 8, 2010 9:44 PM

RE: New Grind, Just like the Old Grind: Quest Heavy Advancement

True Valhalla, I am glad you found the article interesting and potentially useful.

If you are able to design player-to-player quests you will really have something special. Game developers have often sought that type of gameplay element but failed to implement it. Good luck!

True Valhalla Mar 8, 2010 7:16 PM

Good Article

Very insightful article. As I am in the first stages of developing my new MMORPG, this article has led me to reconsider following the WoW model that is so flawed.

I am looking to design quests as simply a distraction from the core gameplay, and they will be aimed more at groups. I realise this cuts out solo play substantially, but I think this will lead to more interesting scenarios for my players.

I am also looking to implement quests given from one player to another. If a player wants 1000 of X item, he would post his offer on a Quest Board and set up a reward fee for other players to retrieve it. These quests would not act to drive the storyline forward, but again would be a simple distraction for those who care to take the time to complete these more generic quests, and for those who enjoy them.

Thanks for the article, I'm sure I'll continue to think of more ways to avoid the common path taken by MMO's and hopefully it will lead to a unique experience for my players.

-Tv

kim schmidt Oct 31, 2009 11:26 AM

so true

i really feel you on this michael, i started my mmo carrer in daoc/EQ1,

one thing in daoc i didnt complete 1 quest on my first 50, and it is probably the most enjoyfull and funniest char i have leveled up.

i remember making my keen nightshade i think i started in magmell, and there was absolutely no in game dirrection what so ever not even a map.

and that is one thing that encourages players to explore theres not a giant map/gps/tourist guide showing where the places are, but it was that sense of "a new world to explore with friends"

i saw people fighting some beettles near the beach and i walked up to them, they instantly /hailed me and buffed me and asked if i wanted to join, wow was that awesome :D, and whe just killed beettles, but in daoc getting to know people was enjoyable aswell, there was nothing of that "do you have that Q etc" whe just grouped up killed/trained enjoyed our selves

and i have been looking for that feeling ever since

ps: sorry if my english is a bit broken, and a great writing

Thomas Arp Aug 8, 2009 12:15 PM

Games that got it Right?

Anyone have examples of games that got the balance right?
I've played Wow until the questgrind made the game uninteresting (and yes, that happens a LONG time before the level cap).
I've played games like Guild Wars, which basically had "PUG" hubs between zones, allowing players on the same quests to team up, in an effort to avoid the problem of not having people on the same quest steps around. They also had the problem of advancement differential between players, forcing replaying of content.
I've played (granted, non-MMORPG) Fallout 3 which encourages exploration by using quests, but allows for free exploration to the entire world, regardless of quests and level (You'll just need to be a lot more careful in areas you're too low to handle). Generally, questing isn't needed to play the game at all, though it can provided an XP boost..

I think the Fallout 3 model is the most interesting an viable solution.

Anyone else have something to contribute on this subject?

Michael Hartman Jul 19, 2009 3:21 AM

RE: ThatGurl

ThatGurl, thanks for the comment.

I wish I could disagree with what you've written, but you are pretty close to the mark. This is one of the inherent flaws in the subscription model in my opinion. When your business model is based on keeping people playing for as long as possible, it is very tempting to implement these grinds.

A better focus would be to make sure people are having fun when they are playing, and give them things to spend money on WHEN THEY ARE PLAYING that add even more fun.

But that is fodder for another article entirely. :)

ThatGurl Jul 18, 2009 10:37 PM

You'd never get away with convincing people...

You'd never get away with convincing people that play games based entirely around questing as the dominant source of advancement that the copious amounts of repetitive quests that there's something wrong. Hell if you posted a link to this article in a game like OGP's LaTale you'd get flamed out the ass...yeah..that game is nothing but quest grind instead of mob grind. And truthfully after slaying 40 white beetle G and 40 shaggy in the snowfields, it is far from overjoying to have the NPC tell me I can do it again. (it is able to be done THREE times.)

Christ almighty I don't think there will ever be a MMORPG that isn't grind because hosts like OGP and heck, even Squaresoft's FF11 wouldn't last if there was less or no grind. It's all an arguement of "If they level too fast they won't need to buy from us". Money, money, money.

There's always money in grind, for F2P games especially. "We can release EXP boosters and these poor suckers will buy it because they're under the impression that this game is FUN when they repeat the same quests multiple times!"

Try and point it out and you get flamed to hell and back for it. Everything from "you're a carebear" to "noob" or "don't like it? leave" will be thrown at you. It's funny how people will defend this when they cannot legitimately justify why it is REQUIRED that you grind out thousands upon thousands of EXP just for a single level and you need to repeat the same mindless tasks.

They cannot justify it so they prefer to simply label you as lazy. Let's face it, these bastardized "MMORPG" games have been grind ever since the advent making money off people's suffering was thought of. People are so desensitized that they have no idea and actually picture the idea of a grind free mmrpg or a low grind. "What fun is there if you max out in a week? You'll have nothing to do". Yes, that is true, but what fun is it when it takes days to level when you're repeating the same stupid stuff?

Michael Hartman Jul 11, 2009 1:56 AM

Thanks for the feedback.

I'd love to hear from more people on this issue. This is an issue I feel passionately about, as I have been making games professionally for 13 years. I hate seeing something as cool as "questing" get turned into nothing more serious feeling than picking up trash in your front yard.

If you liked this article, you might want to also check out my blog:

http://www.muckbeast.com

or follow me on twitter:

http://twitter.com/muckbeast

Thanks again for reading!

AskTheCoders Jun 18, 2009 3:51 AM

Interesting

This is an interesting take on questing and I agree for the most part. It is easy for an interesting dynamic quest system to become just another grind or else lose the part where it becomes interesting.

Rob Jun 9, 2009 12:22 AM

So true

I totally agree with you. My first MMO was Everquest. It was a social game and it was so much fun. I hate being led along in these new MMO's. Your movements feel so scripted.

Khaba Jun 8, 2009 3:06 PM

Solutions to perennial MMO problems

I've never played an MMO for 2 reasons. 1) not enough free time and 2) aversion to 'grinding'.

However, the theory of an MMO was always immensely appealing to me (especially the economics - it seems that an MMO would be a good place to test economic theories).

I'm surprised that better solutions to the grinding problem haven't emerged given the amount of focus the industry (and fans) now have on the genre. I have a simple proposal, which shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

Let PCs be quest givers.

PCs could get some XP for giving a quest to another PC (and more when they complete it). The upfront XP would have to be minimal to avoid quid pro quo quest giving/taking with no intention of completing them. But I'm sure all the details like that could be worked out. A Quest-Giver rating system could be used to identify the best quest givers. Basically, use the Web 2.0 model and let the users generate the content.

New Grind, Just like the Old Grind: Quest Heavy Advancement

Bashing Quests? How Dare You! We Love the Quest Grind

Questing and Quest Grinding vs Mob Grinding? Which method is a faster way to level?

Where Did Quest Heavy Advancement Go Right? Quest Grinds That Are Ok.

Where Did Quest Heavy Advancement Go Wrong?

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